Perspective is Everything

Sometimes you can be noted to death, but having perspective about the process can help you get through the process. erzuliefilm.com

Transcript

Adam Rani 00:27

How are you doing Christine? Are you doing good?

Christine Chen 00:29

I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. Hey, this is yeah, go ahead. 

Adam Rani 00:34

No, go ahead. 

Christine Chen 00:36

This is the most efficient, like, getting on Zoom and podcast that we've had in a while.

Adam Rani 00:44

Oh, that's good. I still feel like a chicken with his head cut off. But I'm glad you feel I'm glad you feel differently. And I appreciate that.

Christine Chen 00:53

Yes, kind of put together, ish.

Adam Rani 00:57

Well, you are maybe I'm trying to get my life together. We are live. 

Christine Chen 01:06

Hello. Yes. 

Adam Rani 01:08

Oh, snap ladies and gentlemen. Welcome one at all, ladies and gentlemen, to another fantastic episode of the Get Reelisms podcast. I'm Adam Chase Rani

Christine Chen 01:21

And I am Christine Chen.

Adam Rani 01:24

We're back. Look at that. And as promised. 

Christine Chen 01:29

And there are people. 

Adam Rani 01:30

And there's people, four people here on Instagram. There's a there's a few people on Facebook. Welcome, everybody. Thank you so much for joining us. If this is your first time you have no clue what's happening. Well, this is a filming podcast and we're hearing it out with writer director Christine Chen. schlubby. schlubby dummy Adam Chase Rani. 

Adam Rani 01:40

No, not schlubby super talented production designer. Adam Chase Rani.

Adam Rani 01:57

Yeah, that's me.

Christine Chen 02:00

That's you.

Adam Rani 02:03

Christine. How's it going?

Christine Chen 02:04

How's it good?

Adam Rani 02:06

You are on set technically. 

Christine Chen 02:08

Technically, I'm coming live. Oh, Reese is on, Yay. Hi, Reese. Reese is the production designer for Erzulie. And yeah, I'm actually coming live from Long Beach. It is our weekend from set. So, we've been trying to, you know, be COVID safe and do outdoorsy type things like go to the beach and said on our weekends. Yes. So, it was our week, our weekend. And we are leaving again today to go back into the mountains to continue shooting tomorrow. And actually, Carly's inside. We're staying with her cousin. And we just looked at the call, she realized that tomorrow we are left. 

Adam Rani 03:03

How do you say that? Why? 

Christine Chen 03:05

This has been a very heavy practical film, which is awesome. Because I'm literally recreating Erzulie with but in a different way. So Erzulie, as you know was a lot of practical effects. Right. And.

Adam Rani 03:26

Sorry to interrupt. Howdy, Reese. We love you, buddy. Hey, Gary.

Christine Chen 03:30

Oh, congratulations to Reese. His first, I believe directory director directorial debut film short film will be playing at the Shreveport Louisiana film prize. It he is a top 20 film and we're really excited for him about that. So, congrats man.

Adam Rani 03:51

You had a genius Reese. You. God, we love you. We love you. Very proud of your race. I'm super excited for you. I can't wait to see it either. We love you, buddy. Um,

Christine Chen 04:05

well, good. Roxy is on here too. So, she will also know that tomorrow we're after. So, Roxy is constantly on the same project, as well, for tomorrow. This project has been amazing. Like everybody on the set has been awesome and stuff. It's just a very hard shoot. And it's really funny because it's like Deja vu. Because we literally also did I mean, Erzulie as a camp film, also with heavy prosthetics that are that practical in the woods in you know, in the elements and stuff like that and it is a horror comedy which is based and nakedness, nakedness and carbon copy for this. The only difference is there's the beauty of this is that there's actually 15 days, not 11 and they aren't dealing with tail mermaid tails or water. So, but it's so funny because the producers will like, Come to me be like freaked out about oh, you know it's towards me heavy processing and then like our lead actress to be naked I'm oddly familiar.

Adam Rani 05:17

Oh, Deja vu.

Christine Chen 05:20

Like don't worry we actually practice already for this set.

Adam Rani 05:24

Like so you were born.

Christine Chen 05:26

Yeah, we already did this I'm just doing it again and it's just gonna be so much easier.

Adam Rani 05:32

Been there done that girlfriend we're moving on here.

Christine Chen 05:37

is that Roxy's having a ball because he she actually has an entire FX team. So, she doesn't have to deal with any of that fact. She's still just us makeup and stuff, though which so she's like, I'm doing great. She's like, this feels weird. Yeah, I believe Roxy said it feels weird that I don't have to freak out over everything. Like, nice for you. We I was momentary like oh crap. Not you know, when you come back from the weekend from something you don't quite remember like what you have scheduled for the first day of the start next week? And yeah, yeah. Carly kindly reminded me there was like I had to send like, actor warnings in like, let them know when their call times closers are gonna change. Right. And she was like, you know, Karen's gonna be a zombie tomorrow. I'm like, ah, I forgot about that. Yeah, go and look at that schedule. Like, oh, God, because putting, like, this isn't really when you think zombies. You think like Holly. Halloween, so I can say things. Halloween, like basic, you know, just some. Some greenish some, you know, makeup like that, like super simple. No, this is some of the most intricate zombie makeup I've ever seen. It’s amazing. It's, we've got like, jaws are like, half melted off. And like falling off was like.

Adam Rani 07:02

I saw the Instagram posts. They're pretty, I like them.

Christine Chen 07:05

Super gnarly, like hands are like part trees and like weird. Like, it is nuts. Well, when you want something like that, which is art and beautiful, it takes a very long time. So, to get along our actress into that hair makeup, it's at least two and a half hours, two and a half hours to do that. And then on top of that, like these are the things that nobody else in the world thinks about. So, when an actor shows up on set their clock starts ticking, right? And it doesn't end till they're out of whatever prosthetics and they're ready, when until they go home. So, like most sets, forget about that. And part they only think about like, oh, we're just putting the actor in. I mean, say, you know, I knew that process to take but you go in and you take the three hours and then they send the prosthetics and stuff like that. And then at the end, you forget oh, we're rad cool. But then like hair making assault VFX or special effects are all like stuck for another like two hours ready take off like the prosthetics and stuff like that. You know, Leila knows this. Yeah, she got stuck in the prosthetics and getting to being stuck being having those taken off for like, two hours, you know, so yeah, we as a team, especially Carly has to remind me and Bill those times in? Because that's all especially as I said Oh, what we call OT? You know, so over time over time, so but yeah, tomorrow, I was reminded that we're effed.

Christine Chen 08:14

Yeah, but you gotta you gotta see the brighter side. 

Christine Chen 08:49

It'll be cool. It'll be cool. We start off with a full-on zombie transformation, which will take two and a half hours. And then towards the end of the night, we have a two-part werewolf transformation. Two parts because the first part takes Yeah, the first part takes two hours. And the second part takes two hours. Yeah, so there's two parts to this world transforming. Like, it's old school. Like transfer, like real cool. Full on prosthetics, and it's been amazing. He's an incredible like old school. 

Adam Rani 09:25

VFX Artist. Y

Christine Chen 09:26

each, yeah, we're gonna be a really, really cool. 

Adam Rani 09:29

Shout out to him.

Christine Chen 09:30

So yeah, so that's going to be fun. But we're, we're juggling those times. We're juggling the times it takes us sitting in those prosthetics is not very comfortable at all, either. And tomorrow, not only do we have that, those prosthetics we're outside in the dead of the heat. And you would think like California would be nice and cool. It's

Adam Rani 09:55

Not during this time.

Christine Chen 09:57

in certain parts it is but for the majority, like where we are in Frazier Park, it's 93 tomorrow and then you're 93 it's dry. And though air quality apparently is bad, because there's fires. 

Adam Rani 10:08

Fires everywhere yeah. 

Christine Chen 10:10

And on top of like Carly's doesn't have a voice because she's been trying to whatever crap is in the air is really affecting her. And on top of that where you're in the heat, like it just you've got to control those times, you know, so it's just good thing we had a lot of practice on Erzulie. Yeah, we had office a probably a water. Cold water. So yeah, but that's, uh, that's where we are. We're becoming camp creature Feature. Experts. 

Adam Rani 10:51

The stress coming emitting from your voice is just absolutely hilarious. Because you're just like, yeah, we've done this before.

Christine Chen 11:00

Yeah, we're. Yeah, we're ready now. It's good to see it. 

Adam Rani 11:05

Like, also, like, you remember how awesome it looks to Right. Like, it's like, especially for Erzulie. It's just Oh my gosh, it's so rad. But then the process of it all, and getting it there and then out of it, and then in and then out of it every day. Yeah. Yeah, that shit is just like, you don't work out that stuff until later. And then you're just like, oh, mermaid squad.

Christine Chen 11:34

Mermaid squad. Mermaid squad. That's totally gonna make it into the credit’s mermaid squad. 

Adam Rani 11:37

Especially thanks, mermaid squad. 

Christine Chen 11:38

Yeah, special thanks to the mermaid squad because that was a whole thing. But then you look at the footage, and I'm just excited for people to see it is like and it's so awesome. Like, it's crazy that we did that. You know. I think that's the been the most fun. Is reliving everything within the footage? While I'm editing? That's I think that's the best because why? Why was in it? It was complete all the 11 days is a complete blur to me. Like, yeah, there are moments that in unfortunately, the parts I did. Remember, were the parts that are the most difficult and like most stressful, right? So sadly, it wasn't the positive parts of the film. So, I get to relive the positive parts of the film through the editing process. Be like, oh, look, we did that. Oh, that worked. Oh, you know that. I'm glad that like for example. Although, by the last day, I was it was I don't know. Like it was great that our finale on the finale day was pretty epic. And it was one of those things where like, we weren't sure at all, whether it was gonna turnout or not. And I gotta say, it's one of my favorite parts in the film. How it ended up um, I will get that and I'm like, how did we do that? And then I was like, why are racists it's wild and it's really cool. Like, you sit there and you're like, I think I will nitpick the film you know throughout the whole thing of course and I'm still nitpicking the film I'm in the final stages and what we call the trim pass, just massaging everything. But when it gets to, I would say starting from when I the dead of the night or recall all is lost moment type is ramping up to the finale? I forget that I'm nitpicking it it's so exciting to watch and to like to see him realize like we made this happen like I don't know how but we did you know that it's from that moment on them I'm just like glued to I myself have even though I you know I was deep entrenched in the film. love watching the finale part of it. I don't know if you guys on here, which is nickel and Gloria are our composer. I'd be interested in knowing what he thought but I, but I don't know when especially when you're watching it like in a on a big screen with the epic music. Like I tell I'm telling Nick and our producer, composer and Jeff Jeffrey Reed, who is our sound designer Mike Marvel the crap out of this, like this end sequence like this is because the thing is that you don't get to do this much for indie films, because we don't have the budget. And most of the times indie films are like two people talking in a house right because that's the money that you have to do it. So having these epic scenes to do epic scoring and epic sound design is actually pretty rare for indie films. And so, I was like, just like ridic like, mark this is Marvel right here just did this in this part channel your inner like epic Marvel whatever superhero high budget film in this little moment of the finale. Yeah, because it's nuts. And channel Lord of the Rings channel like just epicenes into this finale and it's I don't know, I want to watch this and the this finale, I'm just very, very, very proud of what we were able to accomplish. So. So yeah, so I guess in conclusion for my long diatribe, is that while we're filming? Unfortunately, my memories are usually the hard negative stressful parts, but I'm getting to relive all the positives of the film through editing process. Yeah, so, but it's almost there. I'm just, it's just the last bit of tweaking. And, you know, I'm glad I took this time that had some time for more away from it. And I definitely calmed down from, was able to accept having this time away from it. Kind of forced to, but my friend Christine, said, while I was talking to her one day after our first or second screening, like, hey, I just feel this immense pressure that I've got to finish, I got to finish it, and I got to do it now. You know, fast next week. She's like, what, what's that pressure coming from? And is it You, yourself? Giving yourself that pressures are literally somebody who's like, you have to finish tomorrow? And I thought about it. And I'm like, you know what? You're right. Yeah. It's literally me giving me that pressure. And so.

Adam Rani 17:03

Because I feel it, too. Yeah. We both you because you have this immense, like, like, because if you don't have a deadline, it feels like you're not going to get anything done. Right. So you just all you're doing is just waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting to keep tweaking and keep fixing and do whatever. That's why I made the joke last week, like, you know, when you asked me like, what am I gonna be done with the script? I'm like, I think about seven years from now. Like, I It's a joke, but it's sort of like, kind of the reality of what I am feeling right now. It's just like, yeah, if you don't have a deadline, you just kind of swimming in this like, nowhere. 

Christine Chen 17:38

Neverland, yeah

Adam Rani 17:39

You're just you're constantly in it, instead of just like getting focused, and really having a specific deadline. But you sometimes tend to stress yourself out like as do right. Like, once I and sometimes, like, I'm an asshole, because I'm very, was a terrible kid in school, by the way, like, constantly, like, I think I did homework, maybe about like, 25% of the time when I was in school. And sure, like, I was a terrible student. Like, I felt so bad for the teachers, you have to dealt with me, but I could not focus for the for the life of me. Yeah. So, when I finished my, my work, that's like, that's my given time. But if I have a deadline with it, that's not gonna be as you know, as I want it to be, you know, because I'm just pushing this deadline. And now I'm just phoning it in last minute. And that's the that's the one thing I hate about deadlines the most is that I don't want to feel like I'm just shoehorning a story in and then it’s not the thing that you wanted in the first place. You know, but yeah, there has to be a balance right has a gray area. Where yeah, no, no, I'm not saying get deadlines away. No, no, still have deadlines. Still have follow up. You have to follow through with your shit no matter what. But also, don't stress yourself. If one day the cylinders aren't firing as you once had it a week ago, and you're like, What the fuck happened last week, like I was on a goddamn roll. Like what happened? And you're just losing your momentum. Sometimes you just have a bad day. Sometimes you just have a bad day, you know, or a bad week. We all we all have that and stuff. But um, it's the fact that you could push through it and keep going and keep writing and be inspired by the thing you're doing. That's what, that's what motivates me the most is just like, if I'm angry in that day, or I'm going to write about it. I'm going to talk about it. However, I'm possibly can because I'm allowed nothing. I can't shut up when I was a kid. You know? So, I'm, I'm always gonna do a write or say something just for the sake of my creative brain to get that sense of accomplishment for the day, so I can end the day nicely. Instead of like going to bed, like standing up all night thinking like, What the fuck? Like, why did I do that? Why don't I do this? Like, why? Why am I wasting my time? When really, if I just have if I set deadlines for myself, I think I can follow up with things a little more. Yeah, but also at the same time. Like, I'm so scared that this story won't work out if I just kept like, you know, yeah, right. If I just speed myself off and just be like, oh, fuck it. Okay, here you go. You know, there's I did a script. And now I got a script written for the sake of getting a script for it, right, which is not the point you're trying to make. You know, if it's a good story, and if it takes you 10 days to write it, fuck, yeah. Hell yeah. But that's not how I operate. Like, it's just, it's gonna be a much longer process. And also, a process that I'm still learning. Like, I'm still actively learning how to write. I'm nowhere near an expert in writing, like, at all like I am, I think of writers as like Mount Olympus. Christine's already up there in mountain Olympus I am, I have yet to start the trail. Like I'm just beginning the trail. Like I still have a hole in it's an uphill battle, by the way, Mount Olympus. So, I still have a long way to go. And I know that if I keep practicing and keep writing every single day, hopefully, I'm going to be that much better than I was a year ago when I started writing the script. You know, like, I started looking at previous drafts of me of this script that I'm writing, and I'm like, Holy shit, this is a completely different story. It's a completely different story than I had two years ago, writing the script. It's, it's insane. And I think it's better. This Yes, go around to because every time I read it, I read this new version that I have with the ending and I I've been having in my head that all along, which by the way came from my very first draft, which comes to show you how not fucking confident I am in getting an ending. I already wrote an ending. It was already there. I just never fucking bothered to look back at my shit be like, hey, was actually kind of a good ending. Terrible script. But good ending? That was actually kind of cool. Like, why? Why don't I do that? You know, instead of just hearing into the fucking wall into the abyss, wondering where the fuck is my script gonna go? You know?

Christine Chen 22:36

Yeah. But that's where is where it's like, time is okay. Because it gives your perspective, right? You never would have known that. Unless you take the step away from it to be like, Oh, wait, this part is actually pretty good. Or, oh, wait, this part that I thought was good actually, is shit. You know, like, it's the best the biggest thing I'm learning from having, like forcing myself like when I say force, like literally forcing myself to take time for me. Because it's like you. There's this immense pressure that you put on yourself. And I think it's the realization that this pressure is being put on by myself. That made me feel like okay, made me realize that I need to take a step away from it that there's nobody chasing after me. They like that definition. Now why celebrate really me chasing. So, it's always good

Adam Rani 23:33

Cut yourself a break, you know.

Christine Chen 23:35

Yeah, it's, it's helped. Like I can tell, I can go in and look at something like, okay, I see what people are saying, I see where I can, things that I can cut that I may not have wanted to cut because I was emotionally tied to it, you know? Or I see parts where it's not as bad that I think, you know, or I or just time to think about like, how to solve something like, not too long ago, I finally solved I think I finally solved the spot that wasn't feeling quite a spot. I wasn't feeling quite right, which was the first the first time they're in the woods. Doing the spell basically, it was like a part never quite felt right. But because having taken the time away from it and having time to process it. You know, I naturally think I came up with a solution we'll see. But yeah, time away. Does a lot and it's very hard to give yourself that time away when you are exceptionally type A or driven or just put a lot of pressure on yourself. 

Adam Rani 24:52

And yeah, that's why.

Christine Chen 24:55

when everybody Yeah, and when people are also when you feel like people are putting pressuring you. And I'm sure like getting asked, sorry, because we were excited. Hey, when are you know, when's your script coming out? Or well, why? You know?

Adam Rani 25:11

Yeah, but it's rightfully asked to, like, I'm excited for this story. I really am. But it's also like, it was keeping me in check as well. It's like, okay, well, you're talking about it. So that must mean you're, you're close. And I keep telling myself it's close. And then I see it. And I'm like, you're not close. I'm kidding. No, I am closer. I'm really, really happy with the story that I'm engaging with. And I just need to trim it do whatever guy do tighten it up and make it a movie as fucking movie. And be on my merry way. There's something else I was gonna say to on top of, because you were talking about perspective. You know, and just like, just the idea of just like taking a step back. And regrouping and coming back. We talked about this with Carly a little bit when we talked about like, going back to our old inspirations, like what inspired us and yeah, kind of going back to our childhood and get our like, childlike mind kind of sparking about again, yeah, that just kind of complete. It's almost like a dry erase board with so much scribbles and shit that just finally got wiped away from back in saying, like, in seeing what my script is with fresh eyes, you know, and then finally, I read it, I'm like, oh, no, there's some really good shit in this, it's just don't have the confidence that you don't think it's gonna be good. Because all you've been doing for 18 hours a day is literally tweaking it and fixing it writing a little bit here, and they're staring at a wall for three and a half hours making mac and cheese, burn it. And then you go back to writing and you're just angry, you know, everything happens. But then once you once you get to that moment of like, I don't know if this is good this is you just don't feel that creative spark, again, it's so much easier to just take a step back, and just engage with something that always makes you happy and inspires you, you know, for maybe the same reasons why you wrote the script in the first place. Who knows? Right? You know, maybe you have to take another revisit sometimes. Or maybe there's just another movie on Netflix, you're just like, well, fuck, I've been waiting to watch this movie. I'm just gonna take a break and just fucking watch it. You know? It's an hour and a half, two-hour, three hour Big fucking deal. It is what it is. You know?

Christine Chen 27:39

I think I'm gonna jump into what you're saying. Oh, with the whiteboard. Yeah. Hey, this isn't. I love the metaphor, because thank you. Because it is. This is an extremely challenging process at this point. Because when you're giving people, your film or your script, or whatever, for feedback, they're literally reading it with the intent of finding problems. So, it is emotionally exhausting, because all you hear are problems. So, you get hit in the head. So many times, with these are all the problems. These are the problems here are more problems. These are that you mentally think you get to a point where you think this is my work is awful. Right? Right. And it's very interesting, because I'm reading this book right now called David and Goliath, by Malcolm Gladwell. Yeah, and it's about underdogs. Yeah. And they there's this phenomenon that and it makes perfect sense that if you are a little fish in a big pond, sometimes it can discourage you so much that it takes you away from what you were going to do in the first place. So they did the study where Harvard students, people who got into Harvard, who like loved math and science and stuff like that, these days, are seeing how many of them actually come out graduating with still with that degree, basically, and versus a not as high caliber school, less selective school, and the students in there and how they, you know, how many of them go in to stay within their profession, stuff like that. And they show that even despite, you would think that the weakest students at Harvard Business School are probably smarter or at least The same as the strongest students and unless high caliber school.

Adam Rani 30:03

I assume yeah.

Christine Chen 30:06

But the problem is the student, the weaker student at Harvard gets beat down so much that they don't believe themselves in themselves anymore, when they have just as much capability as the person who was in the not as procedure school, who, who you know, does, who's in the top class, the big, big fish in a small pond thing. And because of that there are less people like, you see what I am trying to say that where you are in your environment and stuff like that, you have to have, it's all about perspective. So yes, when you're in that zone, where all you hear is negative crap, you have to get out of it after a certain point, because you will get to a point where you think it's awful, he will quit, you will quit, you don't want to get to that point, you cannot get to that point. And that's where so many projects die, is they probably, you know, are editing and they get to a point where they're very close, but all they hear is, these are all the problems, these are all the pots, these are all the problems, right? And they then they just can't take it anymore. And they just are like, well, this piece of work is just shit. You know, it's just terrible. And it's, you know, they give up. Yeah, and then they go, yeah, and that's what they're what this book is saying is that, like, there's this fine line, it's an inverted U curve, basically. So, it's not always bad, the best when you go to the best college. That's the most selective college and not most people are the slightest, are the most successful, because the problem is you get to a certain point where if you're just slightly in the bottom part of the curve, you're going to be so discouraged by everybody else relative to you that it will make you quit. Now, if you put that same person who was on the bottom of the curve in Harvard, he put them in a less prestigious school and they become a big fish in a small pond, their confidence increases so much that they believe in themselves to the point that they do actually succeed and go and chase their dreams. 

Adam Rani 32:23

Because they had a fresh perspective. 

Christine Chen 32:25

Yes, because and so it was. So that I guess the conclusion is that, like, when you're in this, and I'm realizing this, we're in this, and I've had a lot of friends told me this when they give me the notes, but it's hard when you're in it. They have they say, Look, I know you're like really, you feel really depressed and like, just feel like the work you're what you're doing is not good enough. But they're like, you have to realize the people who are giving you feedback are literally watching it to find problems with it. Right? Oh, no. Oh, it is always. And so, if you can think of it from that aspect and know that like, hey, yes, you're all you're hearing is how awful or of all these problems. It isn't. That's not the reality, the reality is that they're just looking for things to make it better. And yes, it's going to be problems. So that helped me a lot, because I did get to a point where I was just like, Look, I feel I could feel that I was getting burned out. Because all I heard was like, oh, you need to fix this part, fix this, or fix this part fix, there was just things that needed to be fixed. Which just made me feel like while the guests the whole movie, just these the things like there's no, this whole movie is just ft you know.

Adam Rani 33:48

And then you're just swimming in that fucking.

Christine Chen 33:51

But having, taking a break from it. And coming back and mean like, oh, this film was actually really good, you know, is actually really good. And yes, I see where some of these notes are. And I can now step outside of myself and see that objectively or is objectively or subjectively, or objectively, objectively, objectively now allows me to creatively work through and fix those problems where before I was impeded by just lack of confidence in the project itself. Does that make sense? 

Adam Rani 34:32

Right? Well, because in a way, like for me, I'm a very sensitive boy. So sometimes, like when I get a note or something, especially from a friend of mine, and it really fucking hurts like if it serves the story though. That's the thing that I need like that. I learned in that moment, like when I was writing in in high school, just like just like these little, short films of shooting with friends, and when they come back Like, this isn't funny. Like, I don't like this like this is like, what makes you think this joke worked? It's like it worked in my head like, what do you shut up? Like, fuck you, you just emotionally, you get angry and then you start coming back at them and then you start to realize with cooler heads that oh, maybe I could have changed that

Christine Chen 35:22

Maybe I could tweak it. Maybe it could be better here. Maybe it could Yeah.

Adam Rani 35:26

But I was wearing my heart on the sleeves when I was in high school. I just didn't know any better. So, I was like, fuck you like what do you know about writing? You don't not write. Or it's just like you don't know writing usually like and what makes you think that you're a writer to your, your Toby kid who still plays Halo? Shut up, you're not you're not anything more special than them. So, I had to check my ego thinking that I was already above it. And then once I come back from that, then I realize, oh, I could have changed that. Or looking back instead of having the no confidence that I didn't have. And I still sometimes like goes up and down with my confidence. If I don't feel good about it, I have to just take a beat with I just have to take a moment to myself, because maybe the emotions I'm engaging with are not the really the emotions that that mean what it is. Does that make sense?

Christine Chen 36:25

That makes perfect sense is Yeah. Yeah, it's

Adam Rani 36:28

I'm not angry in the moment forever. I'm just in that moment.

Christine Chen 36:31

Right Yeah. And it's the like, your valid you feel how you feel right? Like, you can't. But it's like, how do you it's deciphering. Am I feeling this way? Just because I had this expectation that was holding you back, right? Or am I feeling this way? Because I really, really don't believe in the feedback that is being given. You have to separate those two. Yeah. 

Christine Chen 37:05

This is one of the polar opposites.

Christine Chen 37:07

Yes, you have to make that decision. Because obviously not all feedback is great to it. Not all feedback is useful or not all feedback you there's no rule that you have to take all the feedback, right, because it's this is ultimately your film. And you have you are the one with a vision, somebody is just giving you their opinion, right? Not all ideas have to be accepted. But that's it's the, it's, it's funny, because I'm really excited about this, because this is the literally the spot, I'm in, is the processing of all these opinions and all this feedback and understanding what is actually valuable to you. And what is a taste difference, right? And what is a you know, but within those, you still react to everything pretty similarly, you know, so I totally get it because like, the first time I showed or Erzulie to, like a key stakeholder, which is like the distributor person, I expected them to be like, This is amazing, like, perfect, you know, type thing, I didn't get that. And it hurt so much. And I was so my aim, I think my niche was it, I heard that I was angry. And then then I was like, oh, I guess my movie is shit. Right? Like that was like the process of it. But then after I was able to deal and take some time from feeling those emotions, then I could actually go back and be like, oh, well, they weren't wrong. Like, I can see where things can be shortened. You know.

Adam Rani 38:53

Did you give you notes?

Christine Chen 38:55

No, it was, it was more like, what they would react. The note that I got was that, hey, you should probably top off at least 10 minutes from this film. And like where it is right now. It's not going to get into basically, it was very harsh, but like but that's kind of what you want to write like, you know what, you don't want people just telling you how great it is, you know, if you're especially you want honesty and everything and so that's but I think that's what separates good filmmakers or experienced filmmakers from non-experienced filmmakers is that is your ability to take feedback and step away from your ego.

Adam Rani 39:50

Yeah, I mean everybody should. Yeah, because your ego is checked in that moment. Regardless of whether you like it or not, you are putting literally your film on a pedestal, right for everybody to consume and view and shit like that. And of course, you're going to run into those people who are going to be like, I don't get it. This makes sense. You can easily change or take off 10. And that's the other thing too. Like the notes. Don't do you know this writer named Dan Harmon, he created a community he co-created Rick and Morty. Yeah, yeah. He said one time that when he was working for NBC on community, he realized that the notes that he was being given, are always going to be like, asshole notes to him, specifically, because he would you know, he was very, like, not demanding, but he was very, like leaning on his ideas. He's like, I think we should go with this, like an NBC would push back and he would say no. And then those notes from NBC, because they just hold a grudge would be coming at you. And the notes would sometimes be way more severe than they should be. Like, way more like it's like, like, I'm not saying like the notes that you were given were absolutely harsh. But his idea was, I'm not going to take your notes to heart, but I'm going to analyze it. I'm going to analyze it. And I'm going to really understand what your note truly. 

Christine Chen 41:23

What it means. 

Adam Rani 41:24

Yes. What I really wanted it because Dan Harmon said this, it was on a podcast he was like, because when I first see that note, the one thing I want to do is hit that person in the head with a two by four. Like, I don't like that at all. But then I have to come back and say, Wait, why did you make this note in the first place? And like, why? Why this note? You know, because then you start to play that scene or that sequence or whatever, you reread the script, and you realize that that note doesn't make sense, then you realize that, oh, the note is void. It's nothing. It's truly, truly nothing. And or sometimes it would be a note, but it could be meant to be interpreted in many different ways. Whatever, it doesn't matter. Yeah, is that the notes are there, supposedly, to improve the story. That's what I was. That's what notes was explained to me, you know, especially going into like Film Club and stuff like that. I always took notes as like, not an opportunity to for you to be a better writer, but the opportunity for the story to be better. Right? And you take those opportunities, but sometimes those opportunities are they don't make a lick of fucking sense. Yeah, at all. And it's like, why did you make this note? It's like, but the real reason is that that guy or that girl or whatever, just didn't like what you said the last time you talked to them or whatever, you know, so they felt like they can do this, or vice versa. It might be like; they're not giving you the right notes you want because they're just too much of a nice person. They just don't want to tell you that like, oh, this scene, I had a problem with, or they just want to be nice to you. They're just going to it's all great. It's all good. It's all good. And I don't It's not that I don't respect those people. I don't like that as a response. You know, I mean, like, I'm looking for hard, honest response. And for you to be like, No, it's perfect. It's great. It's not, and I know you're lying to me, like I know, I know. There's could be something that could be changed. Even if it's bullshit, I'm still gonna read it. And I'm still gonna take that note, maybe not to heart because I did a long time ago. Not a long time ago. I still take shit to heart. I mean, what am I talking about? I take I take my cooking to heart if somebody says like, burger tastes like garbage. Oh, my tastes like garbage. Like, just like, I get all heartbreak broken. But I, you know, I like to. I like to engage with the people who are worth engaging, if I know they're going to improve the story. Yeah, not so much like, oh, well, my buddy, who I worked with, is going to read my script. It's like, nobody does that buddy. Like, are also who loves writing and movies just as much as Christine and Adam and everybody else who we worked with in the film industry. You know, I'd much rather trust the notes coming from an art director than my buddy next door. I mean, like, I'm not gonna take that.

Christine Chen 44:23

I think you nail on the with, you have to dissect the notes that you get and understand why it was said. Yeah, yeah, exactly why you're getting that note, because here's another thing I'm going to use a metaphor. Yes. Like when you when you go to a doctor, and you say this part hurts. The weird thing about your body is even though your shoulder hurts, it could be coming from an entirely unrelated point. And that's the same thing with the notes too. You might get a note about One thing, like, oh, I don't like this scene, or like, the scene is too long or blah, but they're really just, it's only that way because of some other problem attached to it. It's, it's quite fascinating.

Adam Rani 45:17

The notes came with baggage, you know, I mean.

Christine Chen 45:20

Yeah. And you have to really go in and dissect like, Okay. Instead of taking it completely literal, I mean, some notes, right. But like, if someone was saying, hey, this is too long, you can't just be like, Alright, I'm just a chapter scene. Or I'm just gonna shorten it, you have to know why. Because maybe it's not long, maybe it's feels long because there's no music. Or maybe it feels long, because people don't understand why that scene is important. Maybe, and that's.

Adam Rani 45:54

So, you might think you have to kill your darlings, for no fucking reason. 

Christine Chen 45:57

No reason, right. And so, that's why the dissecting of during this no process, that's, I think that's the biggest thing I've learned through this process is can't take all the notes. Literal, you have to really sit and understand when people say this, what do they really mean? Right? Because the thing is, like people aren't always are always the best articulating how they feel or articulating what it is, that feels wrong. They just know it feels wrong, but they can't, they can't exactly tell you why or how to solve that. You know, they just, they can only say, Oh, this feels wrong, yes, this feels wrong, or like, I don't understand why we need the scene, or like, I don't understand why this or it's easier to get to the root of the problem as to like, Okay, why is it feeling along to them? Is it because, and it? So having those in-depth conversations with people that you value their opinion with is pretty mind blowing and example. For I'm trying to say examples, and Erzulie that won't give away, stuff in Erzulie. But what I noticed that I was doing a lot was I was giving visually, an audio wise, A equals C, but not missing by missing the plus b, like visual, either visually, or like audio wise and stuff and hoping that they would make the connection.

Adam Rani 47:34

Oh, right. Yeah. Yeah.

Christine Chen 47:36

And what I'm realizing is no, if you the reason that you have to have that plus B is there's a million different ways people can interpret something. Yes. And you cannot, you cannot assume that everybody's going to reach the same plus b conclusion, what was happening is I would have a and c and they would still get they were formed their own A plus B, but it would not be the plus b I wanted them to form, it would be nice, five different. I mean, there were still like 70% would have we get that plus b, but that like 30%, I didn't get that plus b, it was very confusing to them, you know that we've made their own thing. And it was, it's, I think that's the crazy and beauty of films and how, why it's so difficult, is that everybody has their own mind and how you process things is not the same as how somebody else is going to process that same information. Right. And that's where it's difficult because you need to figure out a way to visually and audio, whatever, get everybody to follow the same beats. When everybody thinks for their own for their own selves and has multiple million different ways that they process information. I think that's been the most like, fascinating thing during this process of doing audience test screenings, because I'll go ask somebody and they're like, oh, yeah, this is what happened. I'm like, 

Adam Rani 49:15

No, it's not. No, it's not. Yeah.

Christine Chen 49:17

How did you get that conclusion? You know, how

Adam Rani 49:20

many movies have you seen that are like that? Like, you go to a buddy's house, and you talk about the movie and like, you're like that's not what the movies about like did you What are you talking about? Oh my gosh, Nikki is in the in the Instagram chat, and we miss you. We love you very much. Yes. Goodness gracious. Get on the podcast for Christ's sake

Christine Chen 49:44

Nikki is key PA, probably up and coming second, in my opinion. She is awesome. She's been working on some cool stuff. Back in Austin, but hopefully soon we'll be working together again. On set, or we'll see you for a nice alcoholic beverage. Yeah,

Adam Rani 50:05

yeah, exactly. Stop it, I'm blushing.

Christine Chen 50:10

Ah, but that I go back to that has been the most mind-blowing thing to me is remembering that how I process information is completely different from how other people may.

Adam Rani 50:28

And that's not to discredit other people's way of seeing, or whatever, you just have to

Christine Chen 50:34

I think as a filmmaker, you just have to count for that. I think that's what good filmmakers do is, and why there are blockbusters and why they're not blockbusters, there is the ability to account for all the different possibility ways that people process information. And either, if it's important, that's an important plot line, if you want people to make that conclusion, you have to do the job to help people of all different mental processing capabilities to reach the same conclusion. Yeah, that's the crazy part. So that's why these like doing these test screenings has been like really mind blowing, because I'm like, alright, we solved this problem. And you add it, yes. Maybe it's, it's like you're digging it. So, like, maybe the first time you get the note 90% of the people feel the same way. Right? So, then you go in, tweak it, and then you're like, cool, I fixed it. And then you do the test screen. It's like, all right, now 70% Of the people still feel that way. Like, oh, crap. So, you go in and you're like, okay, how do I make it clear, you can go in and fix some stuff. And then the next time, it's like, 40% of people still feel that way. You're like, what the f? And you get to the point what finally? Or you never do you have to live with it and be like, I'm fine. If 2% of people still don't get it? You know? So yeah. Yeah. So, it's that's been a very interesting, interesting process. And having those in-depth conversations with the people give you those notes and understanding like, Wait, how did you reach that conclusion?

Adam Rani 52:21

Right. So, so then, can I, I, I know we're coming up to an hour? 

Christine Chen 52:29

We can finish. Yeah, we can, uh, let's maybe land on this this topic and kind of come to it?

Adam Rani 52:37

Yeah. Well, because I actually have one question for me to ask. And it's about test screenings. So, for test screenings, is that what you? Is the idea in the goal for these test screenings is to reach to the point of how commercially viable your film is to an audience? Like, is that is that is that what it is?

Christine Chen 53:05

No, it serves multiple purposes. So, I think for me, the biggest one is making sure that your what you intend for the film, or the audience experience is the same as how the audience actually experiences it. Because I can think that, oh, I put out something and like how I how I process the information that how I experienced it is going to be the same as my audience. Right? Well, the test screening will show whether that's the case or now you see, do you see I'm saying I do so I'm using the test screenings to be like, what's confusing to you? Or did you understand this major plot point? That is important to me as a filmmaker for you to understand, is it the same? And, uh, okay, so from there, I'm able to gauge like, what still needs to be faced, or, or what I'm okay to live with, you know, so they there's a major plot point, originally, that has been a huge pain in my ass that I thought was easy to understand. Because of how I process information and how deep within the film I am in, but having done multiple screenings, I've been slowly carving at it and fixing it, you know, so I think I'm at the point where, like, third, there's still like 30% of people who don't get this major plot point, which is still not good for me. Like I want to get to the point where maybe 2% People don't get this major plot point, type thing. So, it's been like going in and adding extra lines, ADR or like extra pickup shots, or simply editing it just a little bit differently can help bridge that understanding of this major plot point, right? Yeah. And, and it came, it came to that conclusion of a plus b equals c. And if you don't have plus b, then keep that plus PCP anything. Yeah. So that's what I was learning was, there was this one page of PowerPoint where I had a and c visually, audio, whatever, all sorts of people were getting a people were getting C, but they were forming their own plus b, that was not the plus b. I wanted; you know. And some of the interpretations were actually quite interesting. I was like, oh, I don't hate that interpretation. But it's not what I you're going to miss. If you come to this other completely different conclusion, you're not going to get the payoff for the rest of the film. That's how crucial this particular plot point is, in my opinion, right? 

Adam Rani 55:59

That makes sense. 

Christine Chen 56:00

Like, like, it's okay, if there's certain not everybody's going to get everything 100%. Like, it's just not? You. I mean, maybe you can't, but like, it's very difficult to get to that, because everybody processes information differently. Like, I'm sure, Christopher Nolan's tenant, like nobody, like, most 70% of the people probably still don't get it, you know, including me.

Adam Rani 56:29

I really watched it the other day, and I still like scratching my head.

Christine Chen 56:32

Exactly. But that's also the beauty of the film. It makes me rewatch it over and over and over again to see. So, there's a is a fine line, right. Is that fine line of like, how much do you dumb it down, so that everybody can get it immediately? And how much do you say, hey, I rather them be puzzled by it just slightly and want to rewatch it and make the conclusion finally make the conclusion for their own. Right. So, so, I mean,

Adam Rani 57:05

Well, that's what makes a movie brilliant to me. Is, is it that's what makes lots of directors, brilliant? I mean, you know, Fincher to lynch to Elaine May. Yeah, they all they all have their unique way of like, especially. Are you familiar with Elaine May, she wrote and directed? Now, I don't know if she directed the birdcage. But I know she wrote the bird cage with Robin. 

Christine Chen 57:34

I haven't actually. 

Adam Rani 57:36

She also wrote this movie called Mikey and Nikki. And it's kind of a mobster movie, but it's like her, but it's about like two best friends who have to like, one of them betrayed each other. And it's such a heartbreaking, amazing film that a lot of people felt like the third act was where everything. I don't agree with this, but where the third act sort of like fell off for a lot of people. And I don't think it fell off for me one bit. Like I love the movie, some, but I watched it with somebody who is not part of the industry, who doesn't quite understand what you know what the story elements are. What makes it a movie, what? My own mother, and she has a completely different way of watching the movie and watch that same movie with me. I cried. And she was like, What the fuck? Yeah, I mean, and I'm just like, No, it's heartbreaking. You don't get it, it's just like, you. It's a different reaction all the same way. And it does not mean that the movie is terrible. This is where a lot of filmmakers including myself, get in the way of it all because I wear my heart on my sleeves, that you got to understand that it's everybody has their own fucking conclusion with these movies and don't expect them to all of it. Yeah, have their own be formed when they already got ABC. They are already you did your job, you got to A to C, but the B part, that's where shit is gonna be, you know, kind of going all over the place. Maybe, you know, it's subjective. It's subjective. And no, not a lot of people. Probably me as well, you won't really understand that. And, you know, it's, it's, you got to understand to like, like, It's not the fact of like, somebody hates a movie for whatever purposes, but it's the fact of like, they engaged with it, they thought they really truly think about it. I didn't like 10 at the first go around, but then the second go round. I'm like, All right. You know, I mean, it's I'm like, It's okay, you know, but I know like probably in five years from now I'm like, I don't know I was such a dummy. This movie is about this. This this this. Oh, what are these people aren't adding to their minds. Sometimes I just need time for me to really understand and really engage with myself and how I watch content, and how I watch movies and shit like that, for the sake of story and shit like that, to then come back around and realize, oh, this is actually really good or no, this is terrible. It doesn't hold up like it's awful. It's not good. You know, and I've definitely watched some of those movies and I'm just like, Why did I think when I was five years old, this was a fucking masterpiece. You know what I am?

Christine Chen  1:00:28

Yeah, no. But then you do actually watch films and you're like, you they're a masterpiece. When you're young. You watch them again, you realize that they are so a masterpiece. That is pretty mind blowing. 

Adam Rani  1:00:40

Oh, my God, I still have the same. It's so funny. Because there's two movies, there's only two movies in my life that has ever really, like shook me to my core. And that is jaws and the Exorcist. The Exorcist has given me the same exact fucking feeling with Jaws. And that is I am very scared when I step into. Like, I'm still terrified of all that fucking paranormal shit. And that movie, destroyed it. Like that movie made me scared of ghosts and all that stuff. That's why like, I always tried to be macho by Oh, no, I don't believe in ghosts. You know, trying to pull a Ghostbusters, I am not afraid of no ghosts. But really, I'm terrified. I'm actually terrified. Because I see that movie. And I'm like, I don't want anything to do with that. And you know, of course, like when you grow up, you know, whatever. But you still have that fear. Especially the fear of me going into the fucking water. I have family in Hawaii, and I still refuse to go to the wall. And they're like, what's the matter with you? And I'm just like, have you seen jaws? doesn't end? Well. This is not good. Actually, doesn't well, because the captain shoots the shark. But yeah, you know, that's not the point. Listen, spoilers. 30-year-old movie. You guys have you guys have problems? Guys problems? I'm sorry. But you guys have problems? Then? Close your ears or skip over that bit? I don't know. Um, yeah, I just I feel like because to me, I love Erzulie, the story, and everything about it. I love it. And I also know. I also know that other people don't know you, either. Right? But I feel like this movie speaks volumes about your personality and about you about Christine. Really. And I know, by the way, it still speaks volumes for Camille as well, because I'm sure she feels the same tethered to it as you do. But at the in all the same. You still made something that is that you thought? Well, I wouldn't say as far as I would say you'd thought but you've kind of tried to come to the conclusion of somebody having they're having be set when A & C is met. You know, when you already have that thing in, you're like, okay, so this is gonna be like, universal to every audience member in this movie theater. You know, watching this movie, they're gonna, they're gonna come to the same exact conclusion. You know? And I know that can't be easy. You know? I know that can't be easy.

Christine Chen 1:03:37

Yeah. I'm gonna bring it to a, what's it called a landing? 

Adam Rani 1:03:45

A landing, we could. 

Christine Chen 1:03:46

I think I think the conclusion is this is that you can't a good filmmaker can't make a piece of art without realizing that everybody's gonna watch with different perspectives. And you shouldn't watch a film with only one perspective, you should try to go in gauging a film. Through all the possible ways people can interpret it. And you live with those interpretations are different from your own. And if you can't, you got to figure out how to make it different or better, so that you can get it to match the perspective that you want people to actually gain. But you cannot go in assuming that everybody is going to react and have the same experiences in a way that will make how you process the film the same as the way they process the film. So, I think that's, what I think that's what determines a good and a bad filmmaker is that ability to, to, to include the audience. And I think that's why life Steven Spielberg and others are so great because they they're able to get you to feel unanimously. What their intended feeling is. Does that make sense? 

Adam Rani 1:05:14

From the very beginning to the very end? 

Christine Chen 1:05:17

Yeah. 

Adam Rani 1:05:18

And still engaged with that too, by the way, because now we're in a generation where 95% of people lose their fucking attention after seven seconds. Like, that's just kind of the world we live in and stuff. And to have someone engaged with a movie for hour and a half, two hours. Your jobs done in a way, as a filmmaker, you know, you got them to enjoy. It could be a Hallmark movie, doesn't matter. You still got that person stop being on their phone for literally two hours or stop engaging with pausing it to get up and fuck off to nowhere, Ireland, come back, you know, or whatever. It's, they still maintain that engagement from beginning to end. Yeah, and that's, that's a lot to ask for nowadays. Yeah, it feels like now that we live in, you know, reels and Tik Tok and stuff. Yeah, it's kind of brutal. Yeah.

Christine Chen 1:06:17

I'm gonna throw this in your car. Okay. Yeah, my keys. Cool. All right. Anyway, so that's the part that's been I think fascinating is it's something I'm still learning is how do I universe universally make everybody feel the same way that I want them to feel? Yeah. That's a lot harder than it seems.

Adam Rani 1:06:41

It is. But you you're getting through it. And now you you've got you got a fucking movie ass movie Christine.

Christine Chen 1:06:50

Movie ass movie, Erzulie, movie ass movie, I'm so close, man.

Adam Rani 1:06:57

I know. Yeah, you can feel it. You can you feel it? Yeah, I feel it.

Christine Chen 1:07:01

I'm just tweaking and tweaking and tweaking and like now.

Adam Rani 1:07:06

Until somebody tells you no.

Christine Chen 1:07:08

Till somebody destroys it again. Yeah,

Adam Rani 1:07:12

Yeah.

Christine Chen 1:07:13

That is okay, I just have to remember. 

Adam Rani 1:07:15

Yeah, don't think your shit will be destroyed. Christine, but, you know, it's, I see what your point is though. 

Christine Chen 1:07:24

People are just trying to make it better.

Adam Rani 1:07:27

Well, yeah, there's also people who love to sabotage as well. There's definitely, definitely tons of people, but you can pick those people out in a litter. They're like, it's almost like the black sheep of an entire herd. You just pointed out and you know exactly. I mean, at least I can I know it's hard to read people sometimes but working retail. Oh, man, you know, you know the fakers with the realers. Holy shit. It's like they're seeing the movie. They live. 

Christine Chen 1:07:58

No.

Adam Rani 1:07:59

 Okay. It's a great fucking movie by John Carpenter who did Halloween and.

Christine Chen 1:08:04

Okay, that's probably why, is it a horror film. 

Adam Rani 1:08:08

It is. But it's silly horror. It's still okay, silly. You know, you can watch it with friends and stuff. It's a great time. But basically, the main character gets a pair of glasses and can see the aliens in human disguise.

Christine Chen 1:08:22

Oh, yes. I've seen parts of this. Yes.

Adam Rani 1:08:26

It's, it's, it's an it's sort of a metaphor, when especially when you get to the third act. That's a metaphor to differentiate between the real to the fake, you know, to the people who are the truth and the people who are not the fucking truth who say they're the truth, the manipulators of the world and stuff like that. You know? Um, yeah, I guess that's it. Christine. You got anything?

Christine Chen 1:08:52

No, that's it. That's the that's the Get Reelisms Podcast.

Adam Rani 1:08:56

Get Reelisms podcast, ladies and gentlemen, Getreelisms.com to pick up the book and also Erzuliefilm.com. Please, listen to the old podcast get hyped for the movie. It's gonna be a fun one. You guys, uh, that's been in Instagram, Facebook. That has been the Get Reelims. Thank you, guys, so much. Goodbye. Thank you so much.

Christine Chen 1:09:20

Thank you.